File talk:Equaltemper.svg

It seems the earlier image is a jpg tucked into a file with a .svg extension. My hasty inkscape attempt to fix it failed. If you guys get consensus on Talk:Equal temperament I might be able to massage your png or jpg into svg form, but the only way I know how to do that is labor-intensive with Inkscape. If someone has a better way, go for it. __Just plain Bill (talk) 19:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for both your efforts. I was wondering about tracing with Inkscape, but suspect that would require as much work cleaning up the result as a complete redrawing. Rracecarr seems to have Adobe Illustrator, so he might have a tool that is not in Inkscape.

--Jtir (talk) 20:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The .svg file I uploaded has a layer named foo, containing two extra possibilities for the minor 7th, whose visibility is supposed to be turned off. Depending on the route I take to viewing the image here on wikipedia, using Firefox 1.5.0.12, sometimes I see it, and sometimes not. It's reasonably presentable either way, so I intend to leave it as it stands. __Just plain Bill (talk) 02:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm seeing the same inconsistent rendering with Firefox 3.0 (and Linux). --Jtir (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

WP renders SVG files, so the result could differ from what a web browser displays.

"Mediawiki (the software from which Wikipedia is run) uses the program RSVG (librsvg) to rasterize all of its svg files."

More at Wikipedia:SVG Help.

--Jtir (talk) 15:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The size of the SVG file jumped from 800×300 (150 KB) to 800×350 (558 KB).

The increase seems disproportionate to the increased dimensions and the added content.

• "Vacuum defs" has almost no effect.
• Removing the 24-TET scale has a small effect.
• Removing the "cents" scale has a huge effect. (582832 bytes -> 184446 bytes)

--Jtir (talk) 13:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I saved the "cents" scale alone to an SVG file. AFAICT, each small-tick path has the same style attribute. Not sure if that can be remedied.

There are 1188, (fgrep 'style=' x1.svg | fgrep 0.02398938 | wc -l)

and they consume 235224 bytes (fgrep 'style=' x1.svg | fgrep 0.02398938 | wc -c)

out of 401645 bytes. (cat x1.svg | wc -c)

style="fill:none;fill-rule:evenodd;stroke:#000000;stroke-width:0.02398938;
stroke-linecap:butt;stroke-linejoin:miter;stroke-miterlimit:4;stroke-dasharray:none;stroke-opacity:1;display:inline"

--Jtir (talk) 14:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

There are three types of cents ticks: regular, major, and minor, present in a proportion of about 8:1:1. There ought to be 1201 of them, the only difference being length. Is there a way to apply a single style to all of them? (see admission of newbitude below.)

The 50 extra pixels of height were to accommodate the title and some white space between the ratios and the cents scale, which was getting crowded vertically. With 350 nominal height, there should be plenty of room to add a few more scale bars.

I'm still very new to inkscape, and my linux extends about as far as cd, cat, rm, ls, all without many pipes or options, and a named executable or two. It's beginning to sound like the internals of the SVG file may be tweakable with a text editor, or am I dreaming again? __Just plain Bill (talk) 21:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I played with Inkscape quite a bit several months ago, so I am very rusty. As I recall, there is a way to clone objects. That might be one way to reduce the size. I believe there is a way to create styles that can be applied to objects, but ATM I can't find the documentation.

SVG files are text files based on the XML format, so you could, in theory, tweak them. I don't know much about the internals, but they are documented.

BTW, the Linux pipes were simply for documentating my process.

--Jtir (talk) 22:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Clones share a style, and in a test with only 11 ticks, the size was reduced. However, I found a more efficient size reduction method. Basically, it combines all the ticks into one big path.

• Equaltemper.svg 583195 bytes (before)
• Equaltemper.4.svg 245688 bytes (after)

I combined the small ticks (1201) into one path and the big ticks (25) into another.

Path->Combine is the menu item.

The procedure I used was to select all the small ticks and then combine. The big ticks are in group, so they need to be ungrouped first, and then selected and combined.

BTW, at first I thought that the objects had to be converted to paths and then combined, but that doesn't seem to be necessary.

--Jtir (talk) 22:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I uploaded a new version with the size more than halved by separately combining each of the three tick scales into a single path. (583195 -> 223097 bytes) --Jtir (talk) 19:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Does a great job of shrinking the file. Not so great for manipulating it here, though-- single-click zooms, in or out, hang the machine for dozens of seconds, where before they were close enough to instantaneous. I'll take the big file over that in a heartbeat. This computer has yet to choke like that on anything I've asked it to do, although I haven't tried any serious cartography with it. Mapmaking might hang it just as badly, don't know. I got the same effect when I combined the 1201 ticks in Image:Equal Temper w limits.svg, getting progressively worse as I combined more and more of them. Darn; and I thought we had our answer. __Just plain Bill (talk) 04:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your report. I am seeing a consistent zoom latency of about two seconds with the smaller file and none with the larger in Inkscape (using minus/plus keys to zoom). Two seconds is annoying, but I would find dozens of seconds intolerable. In Firefox 3.0, I am not seeing any latency (using ctrl-minus/ctrl-plus to zoom).

For the record, I have:

• Inkscape 0.46 (Apr 5 2008). (The command "inkscape -V" gives the version info.)
• cpu MHz : 1160.415 (command is: grep MHz /proc/cpuinfo)

This web page reports similar problems with a map. The recommendations include upgrading to the latest Inkscape and cutting the paths (something I can try). As I recall, you have Fedora 6, which is rather old. Fedora 8 with updates has Inkscape 0.46 (F9 is available, but has a few rough spots.).

Since WP renders SVG files as PNG (and presumably caches the result), the SVG file size may not be too important for WP readers. Readers who want to zoom in/out on the SVG file will need to download it, so that is where size matters. Reverting would be fine with me, if you want to do more work on this file.

--Jtir (talk) 11:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This image has "historical" interest, but my attention has moved on to the one with the ratios arranged according to limit, which you have seen in Talk:Equal temperament. Maybe it would be more effective to present the image as a thumbnail of a largish png, since it seems as if svg images containing large paths can be horsepower hogs. Not suggesting anyone do that, just thinking out loud. Further thoughts will go on that talk page. Thanks for your attention to this! __Just plain Bill (talk) 12:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I was going to remove the colon at the end of the title, but after making the change locally, I did a diff and noticed that I have a newer version of Inkscape than Bill.

-   inkscape:version="0.45.1"
+   inkscape:version="0.46"

--Jtir (talk) 19:37, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you know of incompatibility issues there? Easy way to find out is make such a small change, and save it. If I get obvious hiccups with the output of the newer rev, I'll say so. __Just plain Bill (talk) 21:13, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Opens fine, renders just fine at first glance, with my old inkscape and fedora 6.0 linux thingy. __Just plain Bill (talk) 22:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Glad to hear it. I don't know if there any incompatibilities. The new version of the image supposedly removes the colon at the end of the title and recenters the title. Even though SVG files are text files, WP doesn't seem to support diffs for them. And now I see why you have Firefox 1.5. I am running Fedora 9 which comes with Firefox 3.0. --Jtir (talk) 22:30, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

This image is not used in article space. File:Equal Temper w limits.svg shows justly tuned intervals with various prime limits, and in most if not all cases would be a better choice. IMO it makes sense to delete this one. Just plain Bill (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2022 (UTC)